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Electric Cars And What It takes To Power Them
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Jan 17, 2022 17:23:47   #
Fishandrods Loc: Alpine Ca foothills of San Diego
 
hacksaw wrote:
This is a very long read as is the title. I got about half way through it and then went to the bottom of it. After I read some of the bottom I went back to the top and read the entire article. This is a amazing article which will enlighten you about electric cars. Try to read the entire article...
HackđŸ‡ș🇾đŸșđŸș
It is a long read but worth the time. I’ve read about the minerals needed to make these batteries and the child labor used to get some of them. Also about mining some from the ocean floor. I read about Tesla and other makers of electric vehicles and how unbelievably fast they are. I used to drag race and I still go to races and watch videos on my iPad of battery powered and gas powered vehicles. I would never own one but would like to test drive a 5000 lb + car that can go 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds. Even big daddy Don Gartlets has been experimenting with electric powered dragsters.

Electric vehicles and what it takes to power them.

Whether you are a proponent of electric vehicles or not, this is very interesting information. This is an unusual and thought provoking article by Bruce Haedrich.
When I saw the title of this lecture, especially with the picture of the scantily clad model, I couldn’t resist attending. The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.
When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.
Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.
“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.
“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So, I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”
He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”
He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”
He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.
The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”
NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.
In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.
The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.
Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000-pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”
NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”
He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.”
He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”
NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium-diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.
NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.
Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.
I wonder how many people made it all the way to the end if this piece? And, how many will still buy their 1st EV or buy their 2nd and 3rd
This is a very long read as is the title. I got ab... (show quote)

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Jan 17, 2022 17:35:54   #
Jeremy Loc: America
 
Barnacles wrote:
You almost never hear anyone address the biggest threat to our environment.

There are just too many of us! The environment could cope with a certain number of humans and our needs, but this blue ball in space can only support so many of us.

I'm NOT saying that we should start doing away with people. If we did that, guess who would be the ones to decide who's not needed. Then, there would be no one left but politicians!!!

I'm 77, and I'll vacate this planet before too many years. And I've done my part by never making any replacements for myself. But I have to wonder about people who have a dozen kids, how long can we keep that up? If there were less of us, we wouldn't be able to overcome what the environment could cope with.

...Just ranting, don't listen to me.
You almost never hear anyone address the biggest t... (show quote)



I agree I think you hit nail on head. You have a much better outlook than ignoring it and claiming it’s not happening or impossible. Blaming the messenger.

At least you have seen things and know that it’s obviously probably too late. I think what your posts illustrates is pretty much what the environmental community is hoping mankind can try to slow a little bit. Too many people is exactly it. Selfish people is what really make it worse but you already knew that.

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Jan 17, 2022 17:39:26   #
audigger53 Loc: Severn, MD
 
Add in the cost for increasing the power grid. Add the cost for adding a charging station to your house( I heard once that the Electric Companies wanted like $700 for that alone). California already has rolling blackouts each year, BTW. And then there is the cost of replacing the battery when it starts dying on you. Want to make a guess? One guy here said that Oregon has passed a law saying the car companies must give a 10 year warranty on the cars. I would like to know what that is to cover. There are lots of things about Electric cars that have NOT been made public by the "Green Groups". Do I think they would lie to us? You bet, have done so before. Now about their Experts, how many of them are not getting Grants (Money) to preach to us? Sorry to rant. ; ) Just a sore spot to me.

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Jan 17, 2022 17:47:05   #
Fishandrods Loc: Alpine Ca foothills of San Diego
 
I’ll try this again, the first didn’t work?? It is a long read but well worth it. I would never own one but would like to drive a Tesla or one of the other ones that can go from 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds. I have read in the past in car and driver or road and track about the mining of the minerals used in these batteries and the child labor used to get them. They are also talking about some of them come from the bottom of the ocean. All bad for the environment. I’ve watched videos of electric race cars that blow you away how fast they can be with electric motors that can put out over 1000 horse power. Another thing is what do we do with all the old batteries that can’t be recycled. Just like the waste from nuclear power plants. Not all technology is is a good thing going forward. At 78 years young I’ll never live long enough to see how bad this universe will be in the not too far future. Big Daddy Don Gartlets is playing with electric dragsters.

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Jan 17, 2022 17:47:28   #
hacksaw Loc: Pasadena, Texas
 
Barnacles wrote:
HEY! Where's the picture of the scantily clad model mentioned in your post, Hack?


I couldn’t find her either Barnacles so I went with the boring article.😬
Hack đŸ‡ș🇾đŸșđŸș

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Jan 17, 2022 17:53:43   #
bknecht Loc: Northeast pa
 
Just read the entire article Hack and it’s quite alarming, if accurate in all it’s information I simply can’t understand why our supply of “ natural fuels” was shut down in his very first day of administration. Just don’t get it, I know less each day, guess we’ll have to patiently wait another 3 years.

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Jan 17, 2022 17:53:44   #
Robert J Samples Loc: Round Rock, Texas
 
hacksaw wrote:
Cheap phone battery 🔋. Probably made in the USA.đŸ‡ș🇾
Hack đŸ‡ș🇾đŸșđŸș


Not me, after reading this, I am even more convinced now to stick with one Petroleum products bringing vehicle. Just Sayin...RJS

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Jan 17, 2022 17:55:19   #
Jeremy Loc: America
 
audigger53 wrote:
Add in the cost for increasing the power grid. Add the cost for adding a charging station to your house( I heard once that the Electric Companies wanted like $700 for that alone). California already has rolling blackouts each year, BTW. And then there is the cost of replacing the battery when it starts dying on you. Want to make a guess? One guy here said that Oregon has passed a law saying the car companies must give a 10 year warranty on the cars. I would like to know what that is to cover. There are lots of things about Electric cars that have NOT been made public by the "Green Groups". Do I think they would lie to us? You bet, have done so before. Now about their Experts, how many of them are not getting Grants (Money) to preach to us? Sorry to rant. ; ) Just a sore spot to me.
Add in the cost for increasing the power grid. Ad... (show quote)



We avoided buying a hybrid because I didn’t think the batteries are warrantied for 10 years. Come to find out in some states the 10 year on batteries warranty MUST be honored.

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Jan 17, 2022 18:20:30   #
Catfish hunter Loc: Riggins idaho (Paradise)
 
Just got home but I read the whole thing. There’s was no way I would ever have invested in an electric vehicle before and I damn sure wouldn’t after reading this. I’ve heard and seen similar things but most greenies just tell me I’m full of it. Whatever. I guess they think the batteries just come from the store like salmon and nobody has to get them there. They just appear right? I’ve seen the charging stations and if you follow the circuit to the source of generation it’s ALWAYS powered by a liquid fossil fuel of one kind or another. People who believe these things are good for the environment probably voted for the current administration.

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Jan 17, 2022 18:47:37   #
Maid Marion Loc: Corvallis, OR
 
Jeremy wrote:
I agree I think you hit nail on head. You have a much better outlook than ignoring it and claiming it’s not happening or impossible. Blaming the messenger.

At least you have seen things and know that it’s obviously probably too late. I think what your posts illustrates is pretty much what the environmental community is hoping mankind can try to slow a little bit. Too many people is exactly it. Selfish people is what really make it worse but you already knew that.


King Solomon said there is no new thing under the sun, it was all afor time. Maybe it was a good thing the library at Constantanopl was destroyed We might have got here sooner.

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Jan 17, 2022 19:15:08   #
Jeremy Loc: America
 
Electricity is generated by several sources. Hydroelectric dams use gravity. Sun and wind reduce the need for hydroelectric and other fuels but will never fully replace our long use of hydroelectric and all other fuels used.

I have said many times I don’t think the current car companies that claim they will only make electric vehicles will really do it. They will maybe not have same hood ornaments that for example say Volvo but there will be SMW etc. Swiss Motor Works for example but are not Volvo for there fossil cruiser.

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Jan 17, 2022 19:55:20   #
Catfish hunter Loc: Riggins idaho (Paradise)
 
HarryS wrote:
I read the whole story and found it interesting. I would like to see a similar article on the cost of gasoline and diesel.
The same could be said for natural gas, coal, oil vs wind power. There are always two sides to every story and this provides one. I have an open mind and like most of us here I am very concerned about our environment.


We’d have to compare it to something other than wind power because wind power requires a ton of natural gas, coal and oil to be manufactured. Not to mention lots of other natural resources required for the process of making wind turbines.

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Jan 17, 2022 20:14:44   #
OJdidit Loc: Oak Creek Wisconsin
 
If they can figure out an efficient way to harvest it, wind is probably the way to go.
Not interested in an electric car, thanks. If it can’t go 500 miles pulling a load I don’t need one. I am not going to turn a under 4 hour trip into 7 or 8 because I have to charge a battery
IF I can find a charging station
with no line!

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Jan 17, 2022 20:18:19   #
Jeremy Loc: America
 
Once something that helps the problem is done being made it’s done being made. I have huge solar system it doesn’t take anymore anything to produce something that is finished and installed. Some tell me solar is bad bad bad. Well no more power bills ever. Overproduction means no bill ever this time of year. The more power produced no mater when that is from other sources will reduce the use of the conventional stuff. I know we will always use our conventional sources but less is better. Some don’t realize Coal is putting mercury in your air water and that means your food. Reducing is not a bad thing. To ignore is different than reducing.

I like no power bill. It’s great. It’s not a bad thing. For the people that say it doesn’t work and pay full price for what will increase am I supposed to have sympathy?

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Jan 17, 2022 20:22:27   #
Jeremy Loc: America
 
OJdidit wrote:
If they can figure out an efficient way to harvest it, wind is probably the way to go.
Not interested in an electric car, thanks. If it can’t go 500 miles pulling a load I don’t need one. I am not going to turn a under 4 hour trip into 7 or 8 because I have to charge a battery
IF I can find a charging station
with no line!



I feel the same.

Shutupandfish told me about a relative of his that had an electric vehicle and it supposedly could pretty much out do the other vehicles . Maybe it was a hybrid. Been awhile. All vehicles are designed to run about 300 miles on a tank of fuel. 500 is good if you can get it. My 1992 F150 with 5.8 will go almost 350.

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